Thursday, March 30, 2006

Some Dead Babies Along with Your Organ Meat?

On the one hand, Berlusconi's recent baby gaffe riles the Chinese:
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has landed himself in hot water with comments that the Chinese under Mao Zedong "boiled babies".

The PM, who is running for election in April, refused to withdraw his remarks when pressed by reporters, saying it was "an historical fact".

But the gaffe has angered China, which is marking the Year of Italy in 2006.

The Chinese foreign ministry has said it is "dissatisfied with such groundless words".

"Italian leaders should use words and actions that are beneficial to stable and developing friendly relations between China and Italy," the ministry said in a statement.
On the other hand, what may actually be going on in China currently is quite as repulsive, according to new reports emanating from Sujiatun in China. Jay Nordlinger weighs in.
There is a horrifying story going around the world: In the northeast of China, thousands of prisoners are being held, so that they can be killed for their organs. The prisoners are practitioners of Falun Gong, the meditation-and-exercise system. The facility at which they are being held - called a "concentration camp" or a "death camp" - is at Sujiatun. Chinese human-rights activists believe that this name should cause the same shudders as Treblinka and the others.

I cannot say whether this story is true; I can say that one ought to pay attention.

Of course, "organ-harvesting" is a very familiar story: The PRC has been doing it, with prisoners, for many years. In 2001, the U.S. Congress held hearings on the matter, which caused a sensation. But the sensation died down, as sensations tend to do. Organ-harvesting has gone on, with no negative consequences for the Chinese government.

Organ-selling is a huge business for the Chinese. You can obtain organs in China as you can nowhere else: any type, and very speedily...
Whereas killing babies is a gruesome, but time honored way to survive a horrible famine -which isn't to suggest there is anything good about it, more like people have been doing it since the beginning of time, killing people to harvest their organs for money is a brand new, space-age horror.


At 6:57 PM, Blogger bobby fletcher said...

China is not as bad as everyone make it out to be. I've been there, have you?

Here is more news that has since aired on the authenticity of the allegation:,5744,18669046%255E7583,00.html

"Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"

Now, if there is no concentration camp, rather isolated instances of abuse and irregularity contrary to Chinese law, then there exists a very different reality than what's alleged.

The congressional committee on International relations, Asia Pacific subcommittee has been contacted. However they seem to be unwilling to help. It may be our government's wish to remain ambiguous on this issue.

My opinion is if this allegation is false, we need to make that clear, so we in the West can not be accused of allowing our ambiguity to be exploited for some nefarious, well-timed, political indictment.

Looks like efforts may be needed to make FOIA request to congressional committee. Private citizens without substantial resource and time will likely meet a lost cause.

There are also many questionable issues surround this allegation:

- Many details about the alleged camp site appears to be lifted from the hospital website's About page, including the alleged number of victims, 6000, which is part of the admission statistics published by the hospital in 2005 (2nd paragraph of About page).

- Hong Kong newspaper TaKungPao investigated the allegations and came up empty:
1) Reporters visited the hospital; the only underground structure found is the septic tank:

2) Reporters contacted Lanzhou University, but alleged arrested students' names do not exists in student registry:

- It appears the surprise discovery of an underground tunnel built by japanese army during 1905-1920 period, back in August 2005 could be the inspiration for this twist of fact.

The tunnel was sealed up by the Japanese then and unknown until it was discovered by a photographer from the 918 WWII museum working in Sujiatun.

When it was discovered in 2005 the tunnel was half *under water*, above link has a picture of it so everyone can get a good idea how this tunnel can, before its discovery in 2001, hold 6000 people, plus an army of skilled transplant surgeons, nurses, 500-700 jail guards - equipment, rations, and supplies for nearly 10,000 people - all of them eating drinking defecating on top of each other.

And the amazing thing is Sujiatun is a populated close suburb of Shenyang city, with over 150 foreign company and 50-60 foreign family too - "nobody goes in and out of the concentration camp"?

More info about the tunnel, including dimension of the facility:

"after jumping down and passing two holes, we arrive at the entrance of the underground facility. The hallway is 2 meters long and only wide enough for one person. After the hallway is a wider 8 square meter area. After 5 meters we arrrive at 3 meter wide, 2 meter tall underground structure. Cement covers the walls, it's flooded with water 1 meter deep. the structure is about 4 meter under ground, with some of the walls crumbling.

According to Wang TsenJie who discovered it, from above ground estimation it is 2000 meter long [with widest point @ 3 meter], half completely flooded. Water is clear with fish that have no eyes. Some ammunition and human remains have been found [human remain from WWII.]"

(get help from if you can't read Chinese. It ain't a billion people's fault.)

(Just for comparison Guantanamo Bay is a huge base, and it only holds 700 detainees.)

At 10:40 PM, Blogger Alcibiades said...

Thanks for those links. I found the Australian Age story very interesting.

I realize the story may be wrong or exaggerated, the author of the original story I read made a point of saying that it could not be confirmed at that point, so he could not vouch for the truth of it; but still there are troubling facts that appear in the Australian Age story as well, for example, the fact that China appears to dominate the organ market. There seems to be no way they can do that, producing organs on demand for wealthy clients on that scale, except by using unsavory means, such as organs from prisoners.

Look, I'd much rather find out the story is untrue, but China has a terrible record on human rights - certainly in other countries. They won't support a UN resolution against Sudan, for Darfur, for example, or do anything about Iran at the UN. So this story, while it may be wrong - and I hope for the prisoners involved that it is - does not seem inconsistent with other Chinese policies.

At 7:02 PM, Blogger bobby fletcher said...

While I agree China’s human rights abuse should be examined, as with all human rights abusers in the world including our own country USA - lifting data from websites and writing allegory of “Schindler’s List” is not the way.

If we in the West can not be precise with our facts, only resort to nefarious indictment, who will take what we say seriousely?

At 6:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love how you fucks have so much love for Falun fucking Gong, which is a FUCKING CULT which commits TORTURE upon its own (brainwashed) members.

But then you bend over and take it from the APARTHEID STATE Israel, who teaches the U.S. everything it knows about torture. So no surprise, you LOVE TORTURE CULTS.

At 10:27 AM, Blogger Bob Waters said...

Sunday service has been at my blog, too. He seems to be running all over the internet defending a regime that has murdered seventy seven million of its own people on the ground that there is no evidence that they might be murdering more of them at Sunjiatun. He seems unimpressed by the fact that a diplomat who gave the report any credence would be promptly expelled from the country, and that the diplomatic consequences of seeming to do so would be something any government would want to avoid without absolute proof.

And absolute proof is hard to come by in a police state.

BTW, Sunday service is not a Christian. He is apparently an American who visited a congregation of the State-controlled Three Self Movement (the psuedo-Protestant mock church, which the government controls down to the sermons preached there). He claims that there is religious freedom in China, and at the same time defends the laws against religous instruction of people under 16 and the imprisonment and commitment to "re-education camps" of ministers and church leaders who refuse to take their orders from Beijing.

My experience with him is that the more he posts, the more he discredits himself. I personally banned him because he won't read rebuttals, won't engage in good-faith dialog, and was turning my blog into a means of propaganda for literally the most murderous regime in recorded history.

Oh. And he has so little sense of history that he actually believes that the genocide of the American Indians- horrific as it was- somehow makes American worse than a regime that has murdered seventy seven million of its own people as a matter of state policy. That is nearly as incredible as his refusal to see that such a track record itself automatically puts
any regime under suspicion when allegations such as the ones about Sujiatun arise.

Oh, BTW... the latest information from Chinese dissidents (some of whom, remember, claim to be eye witnesses- though from Sunday's point of view eye witness testimony isn't evidence)is that the prisoners at Sujiatun are being sent to other, smaller camps throughout China. Look for the camp to be opened for public inspection just as soon as the relocation is completed.

At 7:00 PM, Blogger bobby fletcher said...

US investigators find no evidence of Sujiatun concentration camp:

"Officers and staff from our embassy in Beijing and consulate in Shenyang have visited the area and the specific site mentioned in these reports on two separate occasions," McCormack said.

"In these visits the officers were allowed to tour the entire facility and grounds and found no evidence that the site is being used for any function other than as a normal public hospital."

This finding was reported by The Australian weeks prior:,20867,18669046-7583,00.html

"It appears the claims by Falun Gong have been at least substantially exaggerated. Initial investigations by researchers for a US congressional committee have identified the site at Sujiatun as a hospital, where it is suspected organ harvesting occurs but on nowhere near the scale claimed"


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